netkas.org forum

General Category => eGPU => Topic started by: Rominator on December 15, 2016, 12:15:15 PM



Title: For TB3, Skip the Thunder 3, wait for Node or Better. But it is good with TB2
Post by: Rominator on December 15, 2016, 12:15:15 PM
Hacked and whacked my Thunder 3 to get Titan-X in.

Using external power wired to run the thing and extra power to PCIE slot, still slightly less reliable boot-wise than Razer (Razer did 5/6 boots into OS X while Thunder3 did 3/6)

I'm guessing if I went back to barrel only it would attain usual Thuinder2 1/6 or 2/6 record.

Not blaming Akitio, pretty sure this is Intel and Apple gimping it to death to keep prices up.

Node will tell us some things, as will the replacement that meets Apple's high standards.

Apple has made it clear that meeting Intel's TB3 standard isn't the same as meeting Apple's TB3 standard.

Pricks.

Requires the TB3 enabler from our friend kid2010 and doesn't charge the MBP while the razor does. (see before with both and after with just akitio)

Just not the right setup for eGPU, wait for Node or better.

[attachment deleted by admin]


Title: Re: Skip the Thunder 3, wait for Node or Better (Or get a Razer Core now)
Post by: netkas on December 15, 2016, 12:26:44 PM
how does it work with nmp and efi egpu card ?


Title: Re: Skip the Thunder 3, wait for Node or Better (Or get a Razer Core now)
Post by: Rominator on December 15, 2016, 12:59:49 PM
how does it work with nmp and efi egpu card ?

next round of testing

been pretty depressing so far


Title: Re: Skip the Thunder 3, wait for Node or Better (Or get a Razer Core now)
Post by: ed_co on December 15, 2016, 04:33:26 PM
First of all, sorry because maybe my english is really shitty because I can't really understand what you are saying in certain parts.

Hacked and whacked my Thunder 3 to get Titan-X in.

Using external power wired to run the thing and extra power to PCIE slot, still slightly less reliable boot-wise than Razer (Razer did 5/6 boots into OS X while Thunder3 did 3/6)
When you say boots, what is the meaning? Razer: Booting in the OS, 5 or 6 times, compared with Tunder3 3 or 6 times? Seriously I don't understand...

I'm guessing if I went back to barrel only it would attain usual Thuinder2 1/6 or 2/6 record.
Same...

Not blaming Akitio, pretty sure this is Intel and Apple gimping it to death to keep prices up.

Node will tell us some things, as will the replacement that meets Apple's high standards.

Apple has made it clear that meeting Intel's TB3 standard isn't the same as meeting Apple's TB3 standard.

Pricks.
Requires the TB3 enabler from our friend kid2010 ...
Requiring the TB3 enabler is not a must?? I though it was...

... and doesn't charge the MBP while the razor does. (see before with both and after with just akitio)
And, I didn't know that the Razer was able to charge the laptop, not needing a charger. That is cool!! And if Node does, perfect!!

Sorry for the questions, my lame english is not fancy enough ;)


Title: Re: Skip the Thunder 3, wait for Node or Better (Or get a Razer Core now)
Post by: Arch Stanton on December 15, 2016, 05:55:09 PM
It will be really nice when Star Trek style communicators / translators solve the tower of babel problem for us.

ed_co, I am not an expert at this stuff, but will try to convey what Rominator is saying regarding the boot statistics.

Boot = bootstrap.  When a computer is turned OFF, and you press the power button to turn it ON, that is the beginning of the boot process.  If you make it all the way to an interactive environment (command line or GUI) I think for these purposes that is a (somewhat) successful boot.

So with the Razer, Rominator booted the machine 6 times.  5 of those times boot was successful and he could use the computer and eGPU.  The 6th time the machine did not boot successfully and had to be rebooted again.

Mathematics is a universal language - here's the same representation of numbers from Wolfram Alpha - basically Rominator gets the Razer to boot 83% of the time.

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=5%2F6+is+what+percentage

Hope that's helpful.



Title: OK, Akitio Thunder3 might be good for some
Post by: Rominator on December 17, 2016, 12:08:56 AM
I ASSUMED and made an ASS of me.

With the Apple TB3/TB2 adapter, it works GREAT with nMP. As in OS X boot record of 5/5.

So, for someone with a TB2 Mac wanting to hedge bets on an eGPU that could move them to TB3, you could use a Thunder 3.

HOWEVER, mine is power modded on the slot card so as to not be limited to 25W.

Also, I would STILL suggest that folks wait to see how the Node turns out. It is only $20 more at B&H and already has power and space. *(No need to use pliers and rip it open)

But, for TB3/TB2 adapter use, the AKitio Thunder 3 is MUCH better than the Razer.


Title: Re: OK, Akitio Thunder3 might be good for some
Post by: ed_co on December 17, 2016, 11:03:37 AM
Thanks Arch Stanton:)

With the Apple TB3/TB2 adapter, it works GREAT with nMP. As in OS X boot record of 5/5.

So, for someone with a TB2 Mac wanting to hedge bets on an eGPU that could move them to TB3, you could use a Thunder 3.
What about TB1?? I have a Mbpr early 2013

Also, I would STILL suggest that folks wait to see how the Node turns out. It is only $20 more at B&H and already has power and space. *(No need to use pliers and rip it open)

But, for TB3/TB2 adapter use, the AKitio Thunder 3 is MUCH better than the Razer.

Why is much better than Razer??


Title: Re: For TB3, Skip the Thunder 3, wait for Node or Better. But it is good with TB2
Post by: Rominator on December 17, 2016, 11:01:08 PM
For use on my nMP 6,1 via an Apple TB3/TB2 adapter the Akitio Thunder 3 has shown 100% "get to desktop" while Razer is like 1/4 or worse.

If I had to guess it's likely that the Ethernet and USB ports are at fault but that is just a guess.

It is unfortunate as the Razer is 1 piece, no power issues,  and well built.


Title: Re: For TB3, Skip the Thunder 3, wait for Node or Better. But it is good with TB2
Post by: ed_co on December 18, 2016, 01:02:02 PM
Do you have a TB1 to test??


Title: Re: For TB3, Skip the Thunder 3, wait for Node or Better. But it is good with TB2
Post by: nmzik on December 18, 2016, 01:20:26 PM
"At the physical level, the bandwidth of Thunderbolt 1 and Thunderbolt 2 are identical, and Thunderbolt 1 cabling is thus compatible with Thunderbolt 2 interfaces." and "Thunderbolt 2 is backwards compatible, which means that all Thunderbolt cables and connectors are compatible with Thunderbolt 1."


Title: Re: For TB3, Skip the Thunder 3, wait for Node or Better. But it is good with TB2
Post by: ed_co on December 18, 2016, 02:23:02 PM
But I am talking performance wise...
I would like to know if it is worth it ;)


Title: Re: For TB3, Skip the Thunder 3, wait for Node or Better. But it is good with TB2
Post by: Synchro03andsoon on December 19, 2016, 05:31:00 PM
But I am talking performance wise...
I would like to know if it is worth it ;)

Performance wise you get around 800 MiB/s with Thunderbolt 1, around 1400 MiB/s with Thunderbolt 2, and around 2200 MiB/s with Thunderbolt 3. Because of PCI-Express scaling the real world difference between Thunderbolt 1 -3 is not equivalent/linear to the MiB/s: https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.computerbase.de%2F2011-08%2Ftest-grafikkarten-mit-pcie%2F4%2F&sandbox=1

800 MiB/s for example are enough to run a 4K monitor. I could even just run a 4K monitor with 400 MiB/s.

The advantage of Thunderbolt 1 Mac's with a Thunderbolt 1 or 2 enclosure is that you have only to edit the six kext's, no further hacks needed. And 100% boot success.

OpenGL: Anticipate via Thunderbolt 1 eGPU a performance drop between 12%-32%, depending on application, compared with the same graphics card in a Mac Pro with PCI-Express 16x:
Heaven: http://forums.macrumors.com/attachments/unigine-heavencomp-png.566396/
Valley: http://forums.macrumors.com/attachments/unigine-valley-comp-png.566397/
Note: Mac Mini 2012 and Mac Pro 4,1 with W3690 have almost the same single core CPU performance

Afaik no performance drop with CUDA etc, bandwidth not so important.


Title: Re: For TB3, Skip the Thunder 3, wait for Node or Better. But it is good with TB2
Post by: ed_co on December 20, 2016, 12:55:05 AM

Performance wise you get around 800 MiB/s with Thunderbolt 1, around 1400 MiB/s with Thunderbolt 2, and around 2200 MiB/s with Thunderbolt 3. Because of PCI-Express scaling the real world difference between Thunderbolt 1 -3 is not equivalent to the MiB/s: https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.computerbase.de%2F2011-08%2Ftest-grafikkarten-mit-pcie%2F4%2F&sandbox=1

800 MiB/s for example are enough to run a 4K monitor. I could even just run a 4K monitor with 400 MiB/s.
Nice to know the info. My intention is to use the macbook pro retina early 2013 (quad core 2.7 ghz with Gforce 650M) with a GTX 980Ti in order to use SideFX Houdini or Autodesk Maya 2017 for 3D FX, and to use HTC Vive in Windows.

The advantage of Thunderbolt 1 Mac's with a Thunderbolt 1 or 2 enclosure is that you have only to edit the six kext's, no further hacks needed. And 100% boot success.
So if we use TB3 enclosure with TB1 it will need more kexts/hacks? And even though, no 100% boots?? What more it does require??

OpenGL: Anticipate via Thunderbolt 1 eGPU a performance drop between 12%-32%, depending on application, compared with the same graphics card in a Mac Pro with PCI-Express 16x:
Heaven: http://forums.macrumors.com/attachments/unigine-heavencomp-png.566396/
Valley: http://forums.macrumors.com/attachments/unigine-valley-comp-png.566397/
Note: Mac Mini 2012 and Mac Pro 4,1 with W3690 have almost the same single core CPU performance

Afaik no performance drop with CUDA etc, bandwidth not so important.

Wow, really nice info here!!
It would be awesome to see something like my rig (mbpr early 2013 with TB3 enclosure and 980Ti) with, mbpr 2016 with TB3 enclosure and 980Ti, and see different benchmarks here!! (and with a mac pro/hackintosh rig with an internal 980Ti, should be THE PERFECTION).

Another important thing to measure is, where could we find a TB3 enclosure in Europe?? I really can't find anything!! If I had the chance with Akitio or Razer Core...!!

Thanks guys!! You are very nice with all the info!! I am learning a lot!!


Title: Re: For TB3, Skip the Thunder 3, wait for Node or Better. But it is good with TB2
Post by: Synchro03andsoon on December 20, 2016, 07:53:26 PM
So if we use TB3 enclosure with TB1 it will need more kexts/hacks? And even though, no 100% boots?? What more it does require??

Afaik with Thunderbolt 3 you need to enable the TH3 enclosure: http://forum.netkas.org/index.php/topic,11654.msg34210.html#msg34210 and http://forum.netkas.org/index.php/topic,11654.msg36297.html#msg36297

And maybe further hacks to enable Maxwell cards: http://forum.netkas.org/index.php/topic,11654.msg36177.html#msg36177


Title: Re: For TB3, Skip the Thunder 3, wait for Node or Better. But it is good with TB2
Post by: ed_co on December 22, 2016, 10:10:45 AM

Afaik with Thunderbolt 3 you need to enable the TH3 enclosure: http://forum.netkas.org/index.php/topic,11654.msg34210.html#msg34210 and http://forum.netkas.org/index.php/topic,11654.msg36297.html#msg36297

And maybe further hacks to enable Maxwell cards: http://forum.netkas.org/index.php/topic,11654.msg36177.html#msg36177

Wow, I thought that should be the internal driver for the TB3 controller, not the enclosure. So, I thought that if the TB1/2 computers didn't need special hack, no need for the hack in the TB1/2 computers even with external TB3 enclosure via TB2-TB3 adapter.


Title: Re: For TB3, Skip the Thunder 3, wait for Node or Better. But it is good with TB2
Post by: Synchro03andsoon on December 22, 2016, 10:52:51 PM
Wow, I thought that should be the internal driver for the TB3 controller, not the enclosure. So, I thought that if the TB1/2 computers didn't need special hack, no need for the hack in the TB1/2 computers even with external TB3 enclosure via TB2-TB3 adapter.

Thunderbolt 3 enclosures need the hack from kid2010, even with older TB1/2 Macs: http://forum.netkas.org/index.php/topic,13547.msg36195.html#msg36195

Yes, I thought eGPU are officially supported with TB3, but Apple implemented artificial and unnecessary restrictions. Apple is so unbelievably STUPID. With full eGPU functionality their TB3 Mac's would be much more attractive.


Title: Re: For TB3, Skip the Thunder 3, wait for Node or Better. But it is good with TB2
Post by: ed_co on December 24, 2016, 12:08:31 PM
Thunderbolt 3 enclosures need the hack from kid2010, even with older TB1/2 Macs: http://forum.netkas.org/index.php/topic,13547.msg36195.html#msg36195

Yes, I thought eGPU are officially supported with TB3, but Apple implemented artificial and unnecessary restrictions. Apple is so unbelievably STUPID. With full eGPU functionality their TB3 Mac's would be much more attractive.
Completely agree. Since Steve Jobs is not here, Apple is doing a lot of stupid things...

It should be great to see some benchmarks with the same configuration of graphic cards but with different connection, TB1, TB2 and TB3. And be able to see if really worth it with TB1 or not.

Someone was able to make it work in mbpr 2016 15"? Or still not possible?

Someone knows where to buy TB3 enclosures in Europe?


Title: Re: For TB3, Skip the Thunder 3, wait for Node or Better. But it is good with TB2
Post by: mysticalos on December 26, 2016, 10:23:07 PM
Apple did a lot of stupid things when steve WAS around. I don't think that has anything to do with their mentality. Their focus has just always been a twisted view of a OCD to control everything and enforce their vision on users whether they want it or not. Sometimes it's right and sometimes it's wrong. When it's right apple is revolutionary but when it's wrong apple is stupid. At end of day though it's always been a company that does things their way and damn everyone else. They will always do things the apple way not the consumer way. The apple way currently is throw away devices with poor upgrade options, and mobile device/software priority.


Title: Re: For TB3, Skip the Thunder 3, wait for Node or Better. But it is good with TB2
Post by: ed_co on December 29, 2016, 01:03:32 AM
I understand what you say ;D

What about other questions like:

Quote
It should be great to see some benchmarks with the same configuration of graphic cards but with different connection, TB1, TB2 and TB3. And be able to see if really worth it with TB1 or not.

Someone was able to make it work in mbpr 2016 15"? Or still not possible?

Someone knows where to buy TB3 enclosures in Europe?